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Channel switching
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Posts: 522
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Hi Guys
Channel switching is the most common requirement in guitar amps as far as having any kind of "switching" system. It is truly quite simple, but can be made "too simple" sometimes impairing the ergonomics for the player.
As we know from "The Ultimate Tone" (TUT) series, ANYTHING can be put on a switch and once you've done that, all the switchable things can be synchronised and/or be made remotely accessible, all at the whim of the builder or player.
London Power offers a range of switching kits and has a PDF to make selection easier.
Switching can be done using relays, transistors (BJTs), jfets, mosfets and even tubes, depending on what needs to be switched. Sometimes the simplest circuit can turn out to be tricky to design or to get working reliably, but we will show step-by-step methods of design and get you to a satisfying finish.
Have fun
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Great to have a section of the forum dedicated to switching! I have yet designed or built a two-channel amp, but I want to do so in the near future. Something like a LPSP with the two channels sharing the first gain stage (and maybe staying separate from there; but who knows). My plan is to start as simple as possible.
I like the form factor of the ERK, but are there disadvantages to using jfets (say, instead of relays)?
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Hi Guys
There are pros and cons for every switching element.
Jfets are inexpensive, require no power to be on or off, and come in a wide variety of capability. For switching, you want low on-resistance and suitable voltage rating for the circuit point. Using them as shunt switches is simple but as series switches they require a bipolar supply, which you may find easy or difficult to employ. The gate control voltage is not 100% isolated from the channel, so a small amount of care must be taken in the placement of parts.
Relays require a bit of power to energise and this current has to come from somewhere. Supplying the coil is usually the biggest hurdle in using relays. otherwise, relays provide negligible on-resistance and near-infinite isolation between poles and to the coil, so the coil control circuit can be at any voltage, as can be the contacts. Relays cost a lot more than jfets regardless of what deals you might come across. The contacts can be configured for series or shunt switching with no effort at all.
Have fun
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I've reviewed the example 2-channel wiring of ERK on page 3 of the instructions, and I've read on the LP website that the LPSP uses (or can use) the ERK for shunt switching. And you have told me before that the Jfet gate control voltage should be high enough to accommodate the peak signal that is present at the mute point. So here come some basic questions:
- Does this mean that the preamp signal must be <12V for 12V Jfets? (just checking my understanding; not assuming that I understand correctly)
- Wouldn't the signal at the second mute point of a high-gain channel (e.g., in the gain channel of the LPSP) be greater than this?
- How can ERK be used to mute the signal toward the end of a high-gain channel?
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Hi jmcd
If you look at TUT Fig.9-90 which shows A,B,A+B switching in the LPSP, the signal levels are shown throughout the preamp and specifically at the muting points. Everything is well within the capabilities of any jfet (at the mute points).
The jfets supplied in London Power's Electronic Relay Kit ( ERK) are rated for 25V and the control BJTs for 40V. Provided the filter cap is 25V or more, the zener could be changed to 20-24V and signals of twice the standard amplitude can be handled. As my post above stated, the control voltage is the restriction to signal size in most cases.
If you have a preamp that you wish to add muting or switching to, measure the signals throughout the preamp prior to adding the switching. These measurements will guide you towards the correct switch element type and/or the voltage rating it must exceed.
Usually at the output of multiple preamps it is desirable to use series switching, which ERK is not designed for. You could add series resistors to allow shunt elements to control the selection, but this incurs a signal loss and increases the required impedance for the input of the following circuitry. The latter is not usually a problem in a tube amp.
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Thanks Kevin. I look forward to learning this stuff!
I recently sent you a couple of series switch variants to switch in/out the input gain stage of a 2204-type amp. Now I imaging that I could restructure this switch as a shunt switch. Time to roll up my sleep and get to work!
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Hi jmcd
One thing I forgot to mention above is that in the TUT Fig.9-90 example, attenuation has been added so that the signals at the mute points would be within the capability of the BJTs. A BJT can only handle an AC signal of about 6V peak before it clips the signal. The signal level needs to be quite low where the the channels come together prior to the final tube stage, which makes it convenient as a switching point and allows proper balancing of the channel loudness.
In the LP-PRE kit, based on the London Power Standard preamp, switching is more likely to be by jfet or relay and the signal levels are still quite low at the various muting points.
The plate voltage to the preamp will influence the signal sizes at the various points throughout the circuit. Obviously, with a high B+ the plate signal of a second or later stage triode in a high-gain preamp can easily be 120V peak or more - often asymmetric, say +80V and -120V. Needless to say, there is no place in the circuit other than driving the output tube grid or the OT itself where we NEED such a high signal, which is why there are interstage attenuators everywhere. Even at the power amp input we only need 2V maximum to clip the output, so there is a lot of opportunity within the cascaded stage design to add muting and switching elements.
For a clean path, a single muting point is sufficient to kill the clean sound, where a high-gain channel should have at least two mutes.
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Bio: I am really a novice builder relative to most out there and more as a hobby but I guess you can say a serious hobby. I have built the Ultimate amp starting from a JCM800 with power scaling, extra gain stage, aux power supply, and modified to take any octal power tube based on Kevin's works. This amp is really the latest and greatest for me and galactic grounding from TUT book and am extremely happy with the build. Ultra quiet and sounds awesome the way I like it.
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08-05-2023, 04:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2023, 04:29 PM by Champ81.)
I'm currently implementing a switch that will select between an SIR 34 AND 36 mod on a JCM800. SIR 36 adds an extra gain stage. I have it currently on a toggle switch with no relays or anything fancy. Would the the relay kit offered work well with this? I noticed in the picture it has a cliff jack mounted on the board. Is this to plug in a footswitch? Would I be able to incorporate both a toggle switch and footswitch with the kit? So if using a footswitch for example would bypass the toggle switch. And with no foot switch connected I could also use the toggle switch.
I've never implemented anything using relays for switching before and would like to learn about this.
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Bio: I'm 34 years old and work on MI amps and do some cattle ranching.
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08-06-2023, 11:47 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-06-2023, 11:48 AM by makinrose.)
(08-05-2023, 04:29 PM)Champ81 Wrote: I'm currently implementing a switch that will select between an SIR 34 AND 36 mod on a JCM800. SIR 36 adds an extra gain stage. I have it currently on a toggle switch with no relays or anything fancy. Would the the relay kit offered work well with this? I noticed in the picture it has a cliff jack mounted on the board. Is this to plug in a footswitch? Would I be able to incorporate both a toggle switch and footswitch with the kit? So if using a footswitch for example would bypass the toggle switch. And with no foot switch connected I could also use the toggle switch.
I've never implemented anything using relays for switching before and would like to learn about this.
Having worked with the SIR circuits quite a bit I'm not sure making the modes footswitchable would an addition to the circuit unless you had separate gain and master volumes for each mode. The volume would change radically if you just switched out the gain stage. Having those controls with switching certainly is possible if you desired to do that.
For tone tweaking I found that adding mini-switches to controls voicing options (cathode bypass cap values, attenuator values etc) is good addition to that circuit and gives you lot flexibility in tweaking the voicing to your liking.
Posts: 74
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Joined: Aug 2020
Location: Canada
Bio: I am really a novice builder relative to most out there and more as a hobby but I guess you can say a serious hobby. I have built the Ultimate amp starting from a JCM800 with power scaling, extra gain stage, aux power supply, and modified to take any octal power tube based on Kevin's works. This amp is really the latest and greatest for me and galactic grounding from TUT book and am extremely happy with the build. Ultra quiet and sounds awesome the way I like it.
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08-07-2023, 02:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2023, 02:41 PM by Champ81.)
Thanks Makinrose.
I am planning on keeping it "stock" SIR for now in terms of cap values and such for bias resistors, bypass caps etc. Recently I have been looking into relays as I have seen alot of builders use them. For now it will be toggle switch between 34 and 36.
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Hi Guys
When it comes to switching in guitar amps - or anything, really - you have to look at how the switch element will be connected: this can be 'series' or 'shunt'.
"Series" connected switch elements are in series with the signal. The key to recognising the connection is that both ends of the switch element are floating; neither end ties to ground. Series switching would be used for selecting the wipers of pots to tie to the next circuit input, say two MVs feeding the PA.
"Shunt" switches have one end tied to ground. This is what you use to enable a cathode-bypass cap in a gain stage wired the standard way, or to mute a signal by shorting the signal path to ground.
ERK Electronic Relay Kit uses shunt switching only, and was designed to switch the LPSP London Power Standard Preamp, which is L-PRE in our kits. ERK can be used in lots of other places.
For a preamp like D-PRE (our version of the Dumble topology), series and shunt switching is needed, so the over-riding factor in the switch element selection is the need for series switch elements. In this case, you would use traditional electromechanical relays as these can be wired for series or shunt switching.
When looking at the London Power kits, you really must read the entire product description, not just look at the pictures. The description tells you everything about the product, so there is no guessing on what it will do. If there are still questions, email amps@londonpower.com or phone us and we will make sure you end up with the right solution even if it means you do not have to buy anything from us.
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