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05-28-2023, 05:16 AM
Ok, the semester is over now and I've had several months of experience using the basic symmetric setup both as a player and audience member, and have gotten feedback from other players. Here is a summary of all that, in case it is of use to other forum members.
The two amps with their cabs were an EVH 5150III 50W EL34 into the 2x12 and a half-loaded 4x12 with Sheffield 1290's, and a Blackstar HT Club 40 combo into it's internal speaker (Celestion Seventy-Eighty) and a 4x12 with Sheffield 1290's in an X-pattern with the V30 and Marshall Vintage speakers. The 2x12 and fully-loaded 4x12 were on one side of the stage angled towards center, and the other cabs were on the other side angled towards center.
First impressions playing through the rig for me (into the Blackstar) was "Wow, this is much closer to the sound I have in my head!" Sounded more meaty. It also seemed like the sound was less localized and directional, I could walk around the room and for the most part the sound just seemed to come from the stage as a whole, not one particular spot. Around the middle you could hear tonality cross over between the two different cabinets, but not jarringly. I could also hear myself and the other guitarist better when on stage. A few weeks in, we replaced the half-loaded 4x12 with a fully-loaded one of Carvin 100W British Series speakers from the '70s which I scored for cheap used. That improved the overall tone as the Sheffield 1290's were a bit too scooped to be heard well in the mix by themselves, and the Carvin speakers' resemblance to a V30 means it doesn't have that problem.
Other guitarists who I asked had a mostly positive response as well. One had a big grin on his face while standing right at the intersection of his two cabs' sound fields playing. He also commented on how the new setup meant he was turning down the volume on his amp. Another guitarist commented that the tone sounded meaty. The criticisms I've heard from other players when using this setup is that it is harder to distinguish themselves from the other guitar player, as they hear both themselves and the other player coming through the stack behind them. This made it trickier to know what to tweak on the amp during soundcheck after a play-through. I suspect this would be remedied with the Triangle of Tone (or was it power?) stage setup in the books, but have not had a chance to try it. I'm going to re-read things and see if there was anything mentioned along those lines.
After a couple months with this setup, there was one session where due to logistics we ran an asymmetrical setup again. My impression was that each guitar suddenly sounded localized again and more directional, and that they did not mesh together as well. With the symmetric setup they meshed so well that as an audience member it could be hard to identify the individual guitars when they played the same part because of how well they mixed. The asymmetric setup seemed harsher on the ear too, perhaps the volume was turned up louder during that session. There was also an interesting experience on a bigger stage than we normally play, meaning the normal cab angle was inadequate. We did not adjust for this, so each guitarist ended up only hearing the stack behind him and did not get any noticeable wash from the stack across the stage. The sense of being "in" the sound was lost on stage, but the symmetric setup meant we could still hear each other from the stack on our own side, at least that's my impression. Barring more cabinets for side fills, angling the cabinets more would probably be warranted next time.
Overall I'd say this was a successful experiment, and I intend to use symmetric setups as much as possible. If I can get the small issue of guitarists identifying their own "voices" ironed out, I think it'll more or less be perfect. Funny enough, the guy I bought the Carvin 4x12 from was an experienced sound man. When I told him we were trying the symmetric setup, his response was something like "that's what we've done in sound for forever!" Guess guitarists are behind the times.
Anyhow, thanks Kevin for introducing this setup in your books, and I hope the experiences I've shared are useful for others. If anyone else has experience with symmetric setups, I'd be interested in hearing about them
Thanks!
The two amps with their cabs were an EVH 5150III 50W EL34 into the 2x12 and a half-loaded 4x12 with Sheffield 1290's, and a Blackstar HT Club 40 combo into it's internal speaker (Celestion Seventy-Eighty) and a 4x12 with Sheffield 1290's in an X-pattern with the V30 and Marshall Vintage speakers. The 2x12 and fully-loaded 4x12 were on one side of the stage angled towards center, and the other cabs were on the other side angled towards center.
First impressions playing through the rig for me (into the Blackstar) was "Wow, this is much closer to the sound I have in my head!" Sounded more meaty. It also seemed like the sound was less localized and directional, I could walk around the room and for the most part the sound just seemed to come from the stage as a whole, not one particular spot. Around the middle you could hear tonality cross over between the two different cabinets, but not jarringly. I could also hear myself and the other guitarist better when on stage. A few weeks in, we replaced the half-loaded 4x12 with a fully-loaded one of Carvin 100W British Series speakers from the '70s which I scored for cheap used. That improved the overall tone as the Sheffield 1290's were a bit too scooped to be heard well in the mix by themselves, and the Carvin speakers' resemblance to a V30 means it doesn't have that problem.
Other guitarists who I asked had a mostly positive response as well. One had a big grin on his face while standing right at the intersection of his two cabs' sound fields playing. He also commented on how the new setup meant he was turning down the volume on his amp. Another guitarist commented that the tone sounded meaty. The criticisms I've heard from other players when using this setup is that it is harder to distinguish themselves from the other guitar player, as they hear both themselves and the other player coming through the stack behind them. This made it trickier to know what to tweak on the amp during soundcheck after a play-through. I suspect this would be remedied with the Triangle of Tone (or was it power?) stage setup in the books, but have not had a chance to try it. I'm going to re-read things and see if there was anything mentioned along those lines.
After a couple months with this setup, there was one session where due to logistics we ran an asymmetrical setup again. My impression was that each guitar suddenly sounded localized again and more directional, and that they did not mesh together as well. With the symmetric setup they meshed so well that as an audience member it could be hard to identify the individual guitars when they played the same part because of how well they mixed. The asymmetric setup seemed harsher on the ear too, perhaps the volume was turned up louder during that session. There was also an interesting experience on a bigger stage than we normally play, meaning the normal cab angle was inadequate. We did not adjust for this, so each guitarist ended up only hearing the stack behind him and did not get any noticeable wash from the stack across the stage. The sense of being "in" the sound was lost on stage, but the symmetric setup meant we could still hear each other from the stack on our own side, at least that's my impression. Barring more cabinets for side fills, angling the cabinets more would probably be warranted next time.
Overall I'd say this was a successful experiment, and I intend to use symmetric setups as much as possible. If I can get the small issue of guitarists identifying their own "voices" ironed out, I think it'll more or less be perfect. Funny enough, the guy I bought the Carvin 4x12 from was an experienced sound man. When I told him we were trying the symmetric setup, his response was something like "that's what we've done in sound for forever!" Guess guitarists are behind the times.
Anyhow, thanks Kevin for introducing this setup in your books, and I hope the experiences I've shared are useful for others. If anyone else has experience with symmetric setups, I'd be interested in hearing about them
Thanks!
